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Lamps => Modern => Topic started by: dor123 on March 07, 2012, 10:42:37 AM

Title: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on March 07, 2012, 10:42:37 AM
The reason why the american energy saver T8 (F32T8) can be operated with rapdstart, was discovered in  This picture of j-frog in LG  (http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-63560), about his US Philips F32T8/TL735 T8 lamp.
The reason is simply: The F40T12 and F32T8 (And all american energy saving T8) both have the same buffer gas (Pure argon).
Initially i have seen in the picture, what looks like an end banding on the tube (The first time that i have seen an end banding on a T8 lamp).
I commented about this, than T8LW said that the end banding caused by an argon buffering.
This really scared me off my chair! LOL
So i now know the reason why the F32T8 are dimmer than the F40T12: They are the same lamp type, but only different on their wattage and tube diameter and nothing else.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: Vince on March 07, 2012, 06:17:47 PM
I've got to add something here:

In order to cut the power of a fluorescent tube (say from 40W to 34W for a T12), you must have a different atmosphere inside the tube. F34T12s have a certain part of krypton mixed with the argon. This causes the voltage drop to be lower, hence the lower wattage. I don't know the exact proportions of Kr:Ar though...

As of the F32T8s, I doubt they are pure argon, this would have to be confirmed. Magnetic rapid start ballasts for F32T8s did exist back in the 80s and early 90s. Chances are they were made with a higher open circuit voltage so Kr:Ar tubes would start reliably. It is also possible the T8s are made with a conductive coating, like F34T12s. That allows them to operate properly on gear used with classic argon-only tubes.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: joe_347V on March 07, 2012, 08:14:22 PM
I'm going to have to agree with Vince on this, we still haven't found any reliable info (like spec sheets from lamp makers...etc) about what exactly is the gas fill in a F32T8.

Oh and a 2 lamp F32T8 ballast does have a higher OCV mine is 330V compared to the 280V on a F40T12 ballast.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on March 08, 2012, 09:26:26 AM
TL8W stated in the picture of  j-frog's Philips F32T8/TL735 T8 lamp  (http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-63560), that the end banding on several types of fluorescent lamps (I never seen end banding in T8s, at best not in the european krypton energy saver T8s), "supported by argon buffering rather than krypton". You can see in his comment of the picture i posted in this topic.
Probably the american F32T8s have less krypton, so the starting voltage is matched to the OCV of the F32T8 rapidstarts. I think that the ignition voltage of the european T8s are in the 750 volts or similar to the voltage that the preheat ballast makes when the starter opens. Even thermal and glow starters have difficulties with T8 starting, which is expressed by more blink happy and failing to start an EOL lamp (Strobing, like HID lamps reignitions), instead of successfully strike the lamp but then being triggered by a rectification (Flashing).
There is no way to build efficiently a rapidstart with an OCV of 750V, and the F32T8 rapidstart ballasts have at least in the 400Vs range. So an internal electrically conductive coating will help reducing the starting voltage. But if the F32T8 can develop an end banding similar to short T5s, T12 and T9 circlines, while the end banding don't occurs in the european T8s with krypton, probably the argon is the dominant gas in the F32T8.
Also, if the end banding can occurs also with the T12 VHO, which have neon as the primary gas in the buffer, probably the buffer of the F32T8 is an argon+neon+krypton.
Perhaps Max or James knows the chemistry of the american energy saver T8s.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on March 09, 2012, 08:52:58 AM
Ash in LG, said me that there is a simple way to detect the buffer gas of the american F32T8s: Cooling a fluorescent lamp to a very low temperature to make the lamp mercury starved and then turning on the lamp, to get only the buffer gas light, and then use a spectrometer or a CD to see the spectrum of the buffer.
You can also take a mercury starved F32T8 and see its spectrum with a spectrometer or a CD.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: joe_347V on March 10, 2012, 02:52:22 PM
I still wonder why you haven't contacted the likes of Philips, Sylvania, or GE about what fill gas is in a T8 (since you're so interested about them for some reason) instead of relying on speculation and hearsay. If you ask politely/nicely I guess at least one of them might reply back with the info.  
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on March 11, 2012, 12:00:55 PM
I wouldn't go far, and contact the US lamps companies to ask what is the buffer gas of the F32T8s.
I would might get involved with the companies.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: joe_347V on March 11, 2012, 12:16:16 PM
Ehh you just contradicted yourself there....
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on March 11, 2012, 12:23:56 PM
Joe: What i can do, is to join the LightCommunity of Philips, but otherwise, i have no things to do there other than to ask this question (I tried to join to there one, but i saw that i have nothing to do there, as this isn't the same type of lighting forum like this site and LG).
A direct contact with a lamp company for these questions is a too exaggerated action for me.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: Vince on March 11, 2012, 04:11:40 PM
Trust me, it's definitely not exaggerated to contact them! Any large lighting manufacturer like Philips or GE has a customer service with employees paid to answer questions like that!

If you don't want to contact one of those companies, I will. I remember someone had already contacted the Big Three to get some information about the end of life of F32T8s. If I remember GE gave the smartest answer. I could contact GE and ask them what is the composition of F32T8s' buffer gas.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on March 14, 2012, 06:30:38 AM
I'm failing to register to the  Philips LightCommunity  (http://community.lighting.philips.com/index.jspa), in order to ask there about the buffer gas of the american F32T8, as when i click register, it asks me to enter my email address for confirmation, and despite i enter my correct email address, i don't recieves the message of the continuation of the registration.
Philips LightCommunity, should be the last word about asking these type of questions, because it is a forum of one of the lamps manufacturers, yet much easier to use than a direct contacting with the manufacturer by the email.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: joe_347V on March 14, 2012, 09:17:33 AM
Philips LightCommunity, should be the last word about asking these type of questions, because it is a forum of one of the lamps manufacturers, yet much easier to use than a direct contacting with the manufacturer by the email.

I wouldn't be so absolute in saying that it's the "last word" on this, others can have equally valid information on this.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on March 19, 2012, 02:04:05 AM
Update: James Hooker answered to my PM that i sent for him in LG, regarding to my thinking that the american energy saver F32T8 filled with pure argon like the T12, because of the end banding that i found in J.frog Philips F32T8/TL735, and said that I'm right in this case of the argon in the american T8s.
He said me that he checked with Erlangen (Probably a lighting company that he works with them(?)), and said that when they makes F32T8 lamps for export to the US, they indeed fills them only with argon.
I saw in the member list there, that James joined here, but he still didn't become active and posted anything here.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on May 04, 2012, 07:56:57 AM
My post in the Philips LightCommunity about the buffer gas of the american F32T8 and the F34T12, have been answered and given expected results of the buffer gases:
F32T8: Pure argon.
F34T12: Krypton + argon (This lamp have an electrically conductive coating)
Here is the thread: http://community.lighting.philips.com/thread/2631 .

Now, if the F34T12 have the same gases of the european 36W T8 (It is actually a krypton energy saver retrofit fluorescent lamp that retained in a T12 format and not reduced to a T8 format), so i don't know why they damages your rapidstarts, as the british krypton 8ft 100W T12, don't damages its preheat 125W T12 ballast (Probably The F34T12 damages your rapidstart because they are simply rapidstarts and not preheat).
Also, they could make the F34T12 lamps in F36T8 format and retain the electrically conductive coating.
Perhaps an F36T8 with a conductive coating will still have higher starting voltage than the max OCV of the F40T12 rapidstart ballast because of its slimmer profile than the F34T12.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: Jace the Gull on May 05, 2012, 02:41:49 PM
Dor123, have you actually gone to America and seen the lights yourself? The F32T8 are actually brighter than F40T12

I tried using the F32T8 on a F40T12 rapid start....they don't work they flicker wildly.....and if you try F40T12 on a F32T8 fixture they actually are a lot dimmer than they would on a F40T12 fixture....the F32T8 are bright on a F32T8 ballast...

Where do you get the information that F32T8 are dim in America? In fact the color of those T8 are very different from the F40T12 lamps.....

A F40T12 tends to be dimmer with colder color while the T8 tend to be more warmer side.....

So I am not sure where you have thought of F32T8 being dimmer than the F40T12.....

I tried some F32T8 on a F40T12 one lamp PREHEAT START....It doesn't even fire up not even a flicker! But the F30T8 do fire up though...
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on May 06, 2012, 04:43:02 AM
Jace: I thought initially that the F32T8, dimmer than the F40T12 when each lamp operates on its own ballast (F40T12 on F40T12 ballast and F32T8 on F32T8 ballast), after discovering that both lamps have the same argon buffer gas. However the F32T8 have a lower wattage rating than the F40T12, so as having the same buffer as the F40T12, I found no reasons for the F32T8 to be produces more lumens than the F40T12.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: Jace the Gull on May 07, 2012, 07:54:11 AM
Dor123......seeing is believing.....

I have replaced ballasts and lamps from F40T12 to F32T8 and seen them brighter...

I have one good picture example I can show you a row of 4 fluorescent fixtures...3 of them being F40T12 rapid start and one F32T8 electronic.....and it was noticeably brighter...

I will post it sometime today......

Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on May 07, 2012, 08:36:55 AM
If the electronic ballast supply the full wattage to the F32T8, so that the F32T8 still consume 32W regardless if it operates on electronic or magnetic ballast, so not surprising that this is the reason why the 32W is brighter than the F40T12 on magnetic.
Electronic ballasts lowers the wattage of the lamps so that the will be about the same lumens as with magnetic ballasts, but have a lower wattage.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: joe_347V on May 07, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
Dor123, I've noticed you always only know the theoretical side of North American standards when you post here and not the practical side ie seeing the stuff you argue about in person.

Well in this case most electronic ballast makers have three types of T8 ballasts, one drives the lamp at around 60% (Low Ballast Factor), the other at 88% (Normal Ballast Factor) and the last one at 120% (High Ballast Factor).  So depending on which ballast drives it, and the phosphor composition of the T8 lamp a T8 can be either brighter or dimmer than a F40T12.

Oh and before you ask, I have personally seen both and found the T8 brighter.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: Jace the Gull on May 07, 2012, 03:22:41 PM
I am going to show you right here, a picture I took at my college....some of the older buildings have mostly T12s but some got upgraded or replaced with T8....

Most of the T8 lamps will NOT work on T12 rapid start fixtures...they just flicker like crazy....but we DO have rapid start ballast MADE for T8 but that is a separate story....

DOR123, I strongly suggest you not to guess what you think Amercians have, I don't really judge the Europe or other country lights, only what I hear from others!

I strongly suggest you to ask the member TL8W  (http://www.lighting-gallery.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-56825) whom I have met (as seen on the picture which I was there with TL8W who is from the UK or England which I forget, he has taken pictures of the lights and saw them when he was around NYC.

NYC has many various of lights in use...

Also for the picture I took, it shows three fixtures with T12 and one fixture that has T8, which is brighter?
(http://www.galleryoflights.org/mb/gallery/albums/userpics/normal_T12andT8.jpg)

Posted this pic  here  (http://www.galleryoflights.org/mb/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-11635)
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: dor123 on May 08, 2012, 04:03:11 AM
I think that the brighter is the F32T8 and the dimmer are F40T12.
The european halophosphors 40W T12 and 36W T8, have about the same brightness, regardless if they are operates on preheat or electronic ballast.
Also these fixtures in your pictures are closed, so the lamps can't be seen, so I can't know which of them is the T8 and which are the T12.
Also, the brighter fixture have different color temperature than the other, means that its lamps also uses different phosphors than the other.
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: Jace the Gull on May 08, 2012, 11:14:57 AM
Dor, I am telling you the brighter ones is the T8....why are you so stubborn!
Title: Re: Found the real reason, how the american F32T8 can be operated with rapidstarts
Post by: joe_347V on May 08, 2012, 01:41:40 PM
Dor, this is why others find you annoying. I don't want to be straight up like this but really, other people think you are annoying because you always assume (sometimes wrongly) how the lights in other countries are without having gone to said country. Also you tend to judge stuff when you only know half the story, and that you tend to not listen to other's opinions like in the above case with the T8s.