Gallery of Lights
The Site => General discussion => Topic started by: Silverliner14B on June 26, 2010, 08:36:34 PM
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Another reason the incandescent ban is very bad! Read here:
http://www.hometownannapolis.com/news/hom/2010/06/26-15/On-the-Level-Be-aware-of-arcing-in-switches-if-using-CFLs.html
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This problem is not related to these lamps. This is related to a problem with those switches. I for more then TEN years, uses ONLY CFLs in my room (intially at my mother home and now at my hostel) starting with my first CFL: Osram Dulux EL Longlife 840 15W, on a relatively regular switches and have never saw an arcing problems with our switchs.
Arcing in a switch means that the switch is defect and needs to replaced. This problem can also be happen with regular lamps.
If the lamp is indeed the cause of the problem, so these CFLs that are written upon are smuggled and didn't passed any ANSI or international standard and are dangerous for use.
Also switches that are designed only for incandescent lighting are for tens of years ago illegal in Israel and became obsolete.
Also i used (And still uses) table, desk and reading lamps that designed for incandescent lamps with CFLs many years ago and their switches were still not arced yet despite most of them were made before Y2K (The time where CFLs were rare at homes).
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I would put the blame on the cheap cr@ppy switches instead of the CFL lamps. I have switches that are 20 years old, and have operated fluorescent lamps reliably with regular switching without issue. 30 2x58W magnetic ballasted LPF fixtures all switched at once, and the switch is fine, the breaker that supplied them had to be replaced because it nuisance tripped with the 15A load, but the switch is fine ( Crabtree made good units until the early 2000's, now they are getting poorer and poorer with each "new" generation) even with only being rated 15A incandescent load ( as it is a 2 way unit it is not meant for supply to a socket, although it is completely interchangeable physically).
Cheapo switches will fail after a few hundred operations, even if they are delivering no load other than cable capacitance, often breaking into pieces internally - you find this very often on stove rocker switches, about the only item you will find in a mass market retailer as a spare for stoves, they do not stock any other part other than the oven lamp ( 230V 40W golfball for Defy stoves ( gotta wonder how you are going to get the old lamp out as the aluminium base will be welded very tightly to the socket, I generally can only get them out with a pair of needle nosed pliers after twisting the bulb off)) and replacement cooker hood filters. I replace a lot of relatively new switches not for arcing ( they never get there) but more because they stick, or the toggle cracks or falls into the unit. Welding only occurs if the lamp goes short circuit and trips the breaker.
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Seanb~1: You are right. The problem of switch arcing are not related to CFLs and can only accured if the switch itself is defect, or is a crap of product that smuggled to USA and don't passed any ANSI or international standard.
Why the americans so blames the CFLs on everything even if this isn't related to them ???
In Israel most of the israelis are well recives the CFLs and are now dominates the domestic sector (Actually CFL lamps today in Israel at homes are even more popular then at the commercial sector (Restaurants and places of tourism).
I think there is only one reason for the american reject of the CFLs: Not because of any problems of the CFLs themselves but because of conservatism (One of the reasons why most of the modern streetlighting in USA looks exactly like they were looked before 50 years [Ie... Cobrahead style which is invented in the 50']).
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I dont belive in this nonsense, however with large loads on electronic ballasts, i have had to replace a switch because of arcing, and the other 2 switches make a loud snap when turned on, also the junk fulham electronic ballasts are the probelm. with magnetic RS T12 before the switches acted normal
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Perhaps the electrical switches that cause arcing are defects. For many years we use CFLs and we haven't experience these arcing problem. This problems should accur in really antique switch or with switches that didn't passes the standards.
The israelis electricians knows that everytime an arc develops in the switch means that the switch itself is defect and this isn't related to the lamp.
If this problem is indeed related to the lamp, i think this is a problem that can arise only in 1x0V regions.
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I think the problem is the cheaply designed, Chinese made switches(not that it would be any better if the same design was US made)
Have you seen the inside of a typical residential grade switch? It's very cheaply made.
They cost 46 cents a piece in a 10 pack and probably cost a quarter or so to make.
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Switches/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhiZbojh/R-100075329/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Older switches had spring loaded contacts with more positive action. Commercial grade switches are made with silver cadmium oxide contacts which resists welding and have great power interruption abilities. They cost like $5 each.
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Adderall: you are right. All of the switches that we have in the homes and commercial residence places were (And still are) israelis and they are passed the "Israel Bureau of Standards" standards. I don't think we have importing switches from China since a household electrical switch have too low price that importing switches from China couldn't be justified.
I think the US suffers more with chinese junks then Israel today.
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Dave showed here another proof that the CFL conversion thing is a capitalist strategy for companies to make more money.
So, now we have a problem, because switches are no longer suitable for lighting. The solution? Replace the switches, of course! As said in the article:
There are millions of switches in houses, waiting for the inductive loads of CFLs to be applied.
If we don't want our houses to burn down, we need to change all switches. That means millions of $ for Leviton and Cooper Wiring Devices! I bet we will need to install "CFLs-ready" fixtures in the future... :-\
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We have many old switch in Israel from the 80' and the 90' that don't arcing with CFLs and fluorescents, for example in my mother home.
I think North America is the only region in the world that have switches that suitable only for incandescent lighting.
Arcing of a switch is again not related to the lamp but the building quality of the switch.
Also Israel have no problem with switches arcing with the moving to the CFLs as USA have.
Also i think most of the switches in Israelis homes for lighting are actually multi purpose switches (They used frequently also for operating air conditioners from the 80' and the 70' without arcing and water boilers), but most of the switches in the US home are only for incandescent lighting.
I don't remembers any case where installing CFLs or fluorescents in Israel required a replacing of a switch, even with very old switchs.
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Never had any CFL or Fluorescent Light cause arcing in a Switch.
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I think the problem is the cheaply designed, Chinese made switches(not that it would be any better if the same design was US made)
Have you seen the inside of a typical residential grade switch? It's very cheaply made.
They cost 46 cents a piece in a 10 pack and probably cost a quarter or so to make.
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Switches/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhiZbojh/R-100075329/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
Older switches had spring loaded contacts with more positive action. Commercial grade switches are made with silver cadmium oxide contacts which resists welding and have great power interruption abilities. They cost like $5 each.
On the switch promo page is claim "Quiet mechanical action"
How you want to design a switch, what would interrupt/close the circuit quickly and at the same time being quiet?
This is the difference between commercial and home versions: Home are quiet, commercial last long, but give loud snap...
There was technology for quiet and reliable switches, but today it is banned: Mercury tilt capsules...
@Vince: Inductive load are only those old, magnetically ballasted CFL's. Newer are of rather capacitive load...
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I have heard that the edison socket style isn't as efficeint and I heard a rumour that theay MIGHT stop the production of the edison socket/ bulb! :o >:( :'( This means that we will all be using GU24 base CFLs. :8) I'm not positive, but I've heard from the light bulb guy at Lowe's............................................
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Definitely Edison socket is a thing, what do require exceptions in Codes all around the globe, as it violate even basic electrical safety rules (live parts accessible for finger touch).
Other think it does not guarantee reliable, arc-free contact (if the user does not tight it correctly), what is not acceptable as well (such connector behavior is considered as fire risk today)
If somebody would like to introduce Edison socket now, it will be immediately banned as highly unsafe design...
Other problem is it's very poor accuracy in lamp positionning in the optical system, what require or very latrge fixture size, or yield poor light pattern control (so glare at the same time with low level further away) - so require lamp with much higher lumen output, so higher power input for the same task
And beside the technical/safety problems above, the design is quite expensive to make in the view of today's technologies (metal forming is in mass production way more expensive then e.g. plastic injection into a mould)...
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So, does that mean HID bulbs may be effected? They better not be...................... I like the edison socket. Not a big fan of the GU24's......................... :P
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I think GU24 is better for CFL's then Edison, as with Edison you often can not set the required position - or the lamp look weird in the fixture, or it does not have reliable contact...
I think sockets like Rx7s (or other double ended design) or PG12 are better then Edisons - lamps sit way better where they have to in the optic. But i think the go-away from Edison would affect only new lamp development, present lamp types using Edisons would stay with them, simply becase of the legacy reason.
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You can see that the Philips Cosmowhite CPO-TW have a two pin base instead of ES one despite that it is for streetlighting: To improve optical quality.
Also, all of our israelis recessed fixtures for HID lamps, don't supports ES lamps but Rx7s and 2-pin bases.
We have no recessed fixtures that contains an ES socket (Except of the recessed ceiling ones for two PL lamps, which are used in case of a ballast failure, for temporary lamps).